© Thriving Abroad Ltd, 2020 – 1 – www.ThrivingAbroad.com
THE THRIVING ABROAD PODCAST
The Highs and Lows and Why You Must
Take it Seriously to Succeed
With Louise Wiles and Francis Nayan – Transcript
© Thriving Abroad Ltd, 2020 – 2 – www.ThrivingAbroad.com
Thanks for downloading the transcript from today’s conversation. Below are some questions to
help you reflect on the content of this conversation on: The Expat Laptop Lifestyle.
If you would like to learn more about us, have some questions, or would simply like to start a
conversation with us our contact details are given below.
The questions we ask ourselves, shape our lives. Here are some questions prompted by this
If you are considering moving abroad for the first time, what attracts you to an international
What mindset and attitude do you believe will help you to create a successful life abroad?
How do you make friends and expand your social and professional networks at the moment?
What more could you do?
How do you start the day running, and set your days up for success?
About Francis Nayan:
Francis Nayan is an email copywriter and strategist for coaches, consultants, mentors, and ecommerce businesses. He specializes in writing emotionally-responsive, story-driven emails
that take his clients’ customers on a journey to literally fall in love with their brand. He’s lead
campaigns and built tailored strategies for 6-8 figure e-commerce businesses and coaches in
the BizOpp, Dating, Health & Wellness, Fitness, and Mindset space.
Originally from Memphis, Tennessee, he now resides in Budapest, Hungary and has been living there
for 4 years as an expat. If you’d like to learn more about him, feel free to contact him at
storiesandcopy.com and to join his email newsletter where he regularly shares his insights on all
things copy, email strategy, and life.
About Podcast Host: Louise Wiles
Louise is an expat change and transition coach with professional
experience as a learning and development specialist and personal
performance coach, with a Master’s in Occupational Psychology from the
University of Leicester (UK).
Louise has lived and worked across Europe moving internationally seven times
in the past twenty years. Louise recently published the book: Thriving Abroad:
The definitive guide to professional and personal relocation success. Buy a
copy HERE – use the code THRIVING20 to access a 20% discount and
register to download the associated workbook for free HERE. You can get in
touch with Louise HERE
© Thriving Abroad Ltd, 2020 – 3 – www.ThrivingAbroad.com
Louise Wiles 00:52
So Hi, Francis, lovely to have you joining the conversation today.
Francis Nayan 00:57
Yeah, thank you so much for having me. I’ve been listening to your podcast for a while now and I’m
happy to be on it finally.
Louise Wiles 01:06
Brilliant. Well, it is lovely to have somebody who listens to the podcast joining the podcast as well as a
guest. So that’s really exciting. So, tell us a little bit about where you’re sitting talking to us from, and a
bit about your expat journey.
Francis Nayan 01:21
Yeah, definitely. Right now, I am sitting in Budapest, Hungary, out here in Central Europe. I’ve been
here for about four years now. I think, wow, time really flies, doesn’t it? Yeah, yeah, as I mentioned, you
know, I’ve been here for four years. And I, originally actually am from the United States all the way from
Memphis, Tennessee. So, I’m a bit of a southern boy. My expat journey started about five or six years
ago, when I graduated University, and I was just really lost. Like, I had no clue what to do with my life, I
realised what I studied in university was something I wasn’t very passionate about. And I was just really
bored. And, you know, I was kind of having like, this crazy, existential crisis, ended up kind of mixing in
with some bad crowds, partying a little too hard. And then I had a bit of like, a breakdown, of like, an
overdose, and then went back home to Memphis.
Louise Wiles 02:20
Francis Nayan 02:20
Yeah, it was crazy. You know, I went back home to Memphis to to get clean and everything. And, you
know, that’s when the idea of like, moving abroad came into my mind. Because, you know, people were
saying, so what are you going to do now? Are you going to try to find a job? or will you go back to
school? you know, and things like this. And ever since I was a child, I’ve always wanted to travel. And,
even when I was in university, I did one of these, you know, month long study abroad trips. So, I loved
it. And I was like, I really want to do this. And, I had one or two friends say that they were going to teach
English abroad. And you know, this idea. I thought it was cool. I didn’t know how to go about it. But
yeah, I just kind of did my own research, fell upon getting my TEFL certification. And I did the kind of
the in-person trainings, just out in Memphis, going to the university. And, you know, it was like a four –
month process. It wasn’t very long. But then, yeah, it was around, April 2015, when I started applying to
different schools abroad. So, I was looking at China, of course, Southeast Asia was a place. Even parts
of Russia, I had no clue what I was doing. So, I was like, literally, like sending out applications. I was
like, I have this certification. Like, I hope it’s good enough. And I, I fell upon a programme that was
based in Spain that, you know, they were taking in recent graduates who had TEFL certifications, or
just, you know, wanted to teach English. And I applied, and, yeah, I ended up going through the
process. And, I remember like driving to Washington, DC, which was like a 12-hour drive with my mom
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for this interview. And then, yeah, I got accepted into the program. And, just a few months later, I
packed up all my stuff and moved to Barcelona. And that was the start of my journey. And yeah, and
ever since then. It has been a wild ride, Louise, you know, just from teaching abroad to now running my
own online business. It’s, uh, yeah, it’s been an amazing journey so far.
Louise Wiles 04:40
Yeah. Right. Well, we’re gonna get into that journey in a minute. But just to say we have something in
common then, because when I first moved abroad to Madrid, I did a TEFL course and taught English
too. There we are. We have that in common? So, tell us a little bit about the kind of the mobile lifestyle,
I mean, you really do live a mobile lifestyle in that you have moved regularly. And you’ve lived in
different countries. So, tell us just quickly a little bit about which countries you started in Spain, then
where did you go to after Spain, and Barcelona?
Francis Nayan 05:40
Yes. So, after my teaching, you know, when you’re teaching in Spain, my whole idea was to do this
kind of five years, and five different countries plan as teaching English and then maybe go back to the
States, and do just have a job or something like that. So, I just started applying to different places. I
mean, I knew that countries wanted English teachers. So, I did the whole process again, where I looked
at places in Southeast Asia, in all these places, and I even had a job offer from Hong Kong. And, I was
actually about to sign the dotted line. And then I looked up on like Dave’s ESL cafe or something like
this, one of those websites. And yeah, I found, there’s this programme in Budapest, that was hiring
teachers. And I never went to Budapest, I heard it was an amazing place. And, I just wanted to apply,
just to see if I would get it, just to see if I get a response. Maybe, I was bored that summer or
something. But then, you know, the people who sent out the posting, they responded to me fairly
quickly. I got an a call. And then I was offered the position. And then you know, I had to make a
decision on whether to go to Hong Kong or Hungary. And I just had, you know, call it like weird woowoo
like vibrations, or just having a good feeling intuition or what have you. But I just liked the idea of
moving to Budapest because it was still Europe. And yeah, I just wanted to explore it. And so I chose
Budapest, and moved over there, like well moved right after Barcelona?
Louise Wiles 07:27
Okay. And so you’ve now been in Budapest for four years as you as you said at the beginning,
fantastic. And, just going back to this, the university experience, and you said you weren’t passionate
about it, and you were bored. What subject did you study just out of interest?
Francis Nayan 07:44
Yeah, I actually studied anthropology with a focus in archaeology, which, I thought it was going to be
like Indiana Jones. And, you know, I was gonna wear like that cool hat and like a satchel and all that
stuff. But it’s not as exciting as I thought. Silly me, I suppose. I think it worked out well, in the end.
Louise Wiles 08:04
That’s something I can relate to two because I wanted to do archaeology, that was one of my uni
choices. In the end, I didn’t, so perhaps now I’m, I’m glad now hearing that, that I didn’t. And but you
know, it’s really interesting, isn’t it? I think a lot of people leave University not knowing what they want to
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do with their lives. And, and not sure which direction to take things in. And for many, well not for many
but for some it does lead to this, this desire to travel and to move abroad. So, I’m really interested to
ask you, whether you feel it’s a lifestyle that is for everyone, you know, what kind of mindset and
attitude and approach to life do you think people need to have in order to make success of this kind of
Francis Nayan 08:48
Yeah, I mean, do I think it’s a lifestyle for everyone? I mean, it’s definitely not. I mean, I think, you know,
it’s kind of a, I think it would be a pretty interesting answer, you know I think it is a lifestyle that a lot of
people can, you know, can really enjoy for six months to a year, maybe even a few years. Um, but I
think to do it long term, it’s definitely a different kind of mindset, and your mindset just would need to
change kind of at every level, you know. If you’re just starting out and you’re an expat, or you’re a
remote worker, and you’re wanting to travel the world, I mean, the mindset you need to have is to have
an open mind. I mean, to really just, you know, kind of leave everything at the door to try new things to
understand that, you know, the customs, and everything in culture is just different. And you know, a lot
of like, beautiful things can happen once you kind of have this open mindset. You know, it, the place
that you move to and the you know, the city you’re in, it really becomes your own and you really feel
like it, it embraces you. Once you have that open mind and you know it start to open up to you. And I
think there’s a, you know, for a lot of people, it can be really difficult. I mean, I know, you know, for me,
as a teacher, you know, people would always go in and out of these teaching programmes every six
months, or a year. And, you know, a lot of times at first, it was really exciting, and fun, you know, which
everything usually is in the beginning. But for them, they ended up, you know, they would decide to
leave, or they would say, ‘Oh, I’m just tired of the lifestyle here. I want to go back to, you know, New
Jersey’ or something like this, but, you know, I think it’s not a lifestyle for everyone. But I think it’s, it’s a
lifestyle that everyone should definitely try and experience.
Louise Wiles 10:44
Yeah, I can totally relate to that. And I think what you’re talking about there, many longer term, mobile
people, expats whatever we want to call people living this kind of lifestyle, would relate to, you know,
the excitement, and then initially, you know, really, the journey of discovery that comes with moving to a
new location, but then once that starts to wane, then there’s a question, I guess, around, you know,
how do you make this really work for you? How do you, you used that really lovely phrase ’embracing
you’ So, that gave me the sense of you, you really feeling part of Budapest? Is that right? Is that how
you feel about Budapest now, that Budapest is a part of you?
Francis Nayan 11:30
Oh, definitely. I mean, Budapest was a, it just really, it took me in, you know, that first year, I was, of
course, you know, I was a bit younger. So, I was like, going out and, you know, meeting all these
people and everything. And, you know, I started to feel like I was meeting people a lot like me, you
know, whether that was, you know, travellers, or, you know, mass extroverts, or just people who like
meeting, you know, new people all the time, and I started to really feel at home and that feelings never
left, you know, even down the road, even though my habits have changed and my lifestyle change. I
still really feel like yeah, Budapest is just as much a home to me as Memphis is.
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Louise Wiles 12:14
Fantastic, And, do you, are you part of the local culture you know the national culture in Budapest? Or
is it still quite an international demographic that you’re involved in?
Francis Nayan 12:30
Yeah, well, you know, Budapest is like a huge expat community. There’s a lot of remote workers,
mobile people here and of course, a lot of just, yeah, I mean, people from other countries just working
here, things like that. So, it’s pretty easy to jump into, like these communities of, you know, whatever
you’re interested in. You know, if you’re like a, you know, big, you know, online entrepreneur person like
myself, there are plenty of groups, and, you know, co working spaces that you can join in, and meet
people who are into that. I have a friend of mine who like loves basketball, and he, he meets a bunch of
guys like, every Thursday to go play basketball, and everyone’s from, you know, different parts of South
America or different parts of Europe. Yeah, I mean, I’m in I’m in little clusters as well. I think that’s one
of the cool things about living in a cool capital like Budapest.
Louise Wiles 13:29
Yeah, I can totally relate to that having lived in Lisbon, and there being that very similar international
feel, as well, and yes, and that’s something now living back in the UK, in the countryside in the UK, a
not particularly international area of the UK really, that I really missed that opportunity to mix with such
a broad range of different nationalities and cultures. So, I can hear that is a real high of the experience.
What about the lows? If you, what kind of lows would you point to that perhaps you’ve learnt lessons
from that you could share with people who are listening that will help them.
Francis Nayan 14:09
Yeah, well, you know, the lows, it’s funny I mentioned earlier it’s like, at first the, you know when you
first arrive in a country or something, it’s like very exciting, you know, there’s so much adventure to be
had and everything like this, and so many people to meet but, you know, when you go in you don’t
know anyone. You know, it’s kind of terrifying, you know, the idea. ‘Oh, I’m about to, here’s his big city
and I have to go and meet people. And, you know, for you know, myself, and some of the people I
know, that was, you know, the hardest part is like establishing your kind of group of friends here or the
people who you want to spend the most time with or, you know, knowing where to go just to get
groceries, or to just you know, enjoy and have a beer somewhere, because it can be pretty
overwhelming, you know, especially in a big city or even in like a small village, you know, I’ve known
some people who moved out to smaller villages in Hungary to teach English and they were like, ‘No, I
have no idea what to do. I don’t know, anyone’. So, I think that’s one of those lows. But, um, the best
way to get out of that, you know, like anything in life, I think, is just to try different things, and to step out
of your comfort zone, and kind of embrace that challenge in front of you, to meet new people to, you
know, look for your places and to find your place in the city or town that you’re in. I know, for me, it was
same thing happened when I was in Barcelona, twice. Because, you know, in the beginning, I was
actually living with a living with a host family, a Catalan host family a little bit outside of Barcelona. And
for me, that was really difficult, because, you know, there’s this, they have their own traditions and
family traditions and customs. And I was like, Oh, man, I don’t speak Catalan, I speak pretty okay,
Spanish, but, you know, I don’t speak Catalan. And, it was difficult. And then, you know, a few months
later, when, you know, I decided to move out, it’s like, here I am in downtown Barcelona. And I have,
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you know, no idea what to do again. But, it’s just one of those things that you kind of embrace that
challenge. And, you already know what to do in your head. You know, I like to think and it’s all about
just taking those, you know, those small steps to, you know, yeah, to solving that low.
Louise Wiles 16:27
Yeah. And I suppose when you’re teaching English, you have a natural connection into, you know, the
other people who are teaching in the area, and that kind of English Language Teaching scene or
foreign language teaching, scene? What about in your role now, you know, because I know you work,
you have a laptop lifestyle, which we’ll come on to in a minute, through your current business. I imagine
you’re working from home a lot. So, how have you found connections and friends? with that kind of
Francis Nayan 17:00
Yeah. I mean, it’s, it’s, you know, quite similar. I mean, I think the power of like, you know, like a
Facebook group or something. I mean, that’s just so helpful. You know, I mean, like, the Hungary
Expats Group, and I think there’s even like Budapest Digital Nomads and Entrepreneurs or something.
I, you know, I think every day if I, I’m not even on Facebook every day, but anytime I look on it, and I
look at those groups, there’s always somebody saying, you know, I, ‘I just moved here, or I’m here for
three months, I’m here for six months, you know, Would anyone like to, you know, get a coffee
together, or to perhaps, you know, work together in a cafe?’. And just some, something like that. Yeah,
even like that little bit of vulnerability, people kind of gravitate towards that. Because I think, anyone
who has been in a new country, or you know, is in that laptop lifestyle, or you’re just a big traveller, you
know how amazing it is, when someone reaches out to you and just wants to take you up on that coffee
or something. And, you know, for me, I it’s very similar. I mean, I haven’t really posted anything in those
groups. But, if I go to a cafe, and I work there, you know, every other day or something, I started seeing
the same people. And yeah, Budapest isn’t even that big of a city, you know, and if it is, if people do
consider it big, you know, you do tend to hang out in the same districts or neighbourhoods. So, you
know, just like running into the same faces, you know. A person who you work with at the cafe, you’ll
see him at the comedy night at the pub or something. And then you’ll say, ‘Oh, yeah, I saw you on your
laptop’, and then you end up, you know, nerding out over, you know, cool Wi Fi things, or, you know,
work things or, you know, travel stories. So, yeah, it’s just finding those communities, you can find
them anywhere offline or online.
Louise Wiles 18:53
Yeah, that’s really interesting hearing you describe that, because you know thinking about times I’ve
moved and I’ve read quite a number of times, and each time it’s taken time, to develop you know,
friendships and get to know people. And there’s something there’s kind of a combination of strategies.
You know there’s being proactive and going into groups such as Facebook groups, or in person expat
groups that exist in most big cities around the world. And, but then there is also sort of this organic
development that happens over time, and just comes from being there and naturally connecting with
people. So, I just say that to people who are listening who perhaps are feeling slightly isolated in a new
situation, you know that yes be active and go out and meet people but also trust that, you know, it will
evolve over time. And, as long as you’re doing some things to get yourself out, you will meet people
and develop those groups of friends. And I just say that because there have been times when I’ve been
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three or four months in and I’ve thought, ‘I’m never going to meet anybody that I really click with,’ but I
always have, everywhere I’ve lived, I always have, you just have to keep on keeping on and you will
come across those people. But be active. Yeah, don’t just sit in your apartment and not go anywhere
and do make use of Facebook and Instagram and things like that, because that’s the wonderful thing
about the expat community. You know, people sometimes say, Oh, you don’t want to get engrossed in
the expat community, because then you don’t get to know the national culture. But I think, there’s two
sides to that coin. And you know, yes, you want to get to know some of the locals and get to
understand the culture, and learn the language perhaps if there’s a language to learn, and learn about
that country, but don’t just ignore the expat community, because you can find a lot of support from that.
And that’s important in the early days, definitely.
Francis Nayan 20:50
Oh, for sure. For sure.
Louise Wiles 20:52
Yeah. Yeah. So, tell us about your laptop lifestyle, then. You work from home and I know, you said
when we were communicating before the podcast that it requires you to be even more serious about
what you’re doing, than, I guess, were you comparing it to teaching, I don’t know, but perhaps
compared to a job where you’re going to an office every day and, and working for another company?
So, tell me a bit more about that.
Francis Nayan 21:20
Yeah, so you know, the idea of like, this laptop lifestyle, as you mentioned, I do work online, I have my
own freelance business. I’m an email copywriter and strategist/ consultant. I still have a little imposter
syndrome, so I’m trying to get used to the word consultant. But yeah, I mean, for me, I know that it
requires you to be even more serious, just because, you know, nowadays, especially, you know, really
nowadays, with the, you know, pandemic going on, you know, people are jumping online to figure out
ways to work, figuring out ways to make money. And, you know, with people who have these skills,
such as a copywriter, or a graphic designer, or maybe you’re an expert in, you know, Facebook
advertising, or you have your own e commerce store, it’s really competitive. It’s extremely competitive,
especially as a freelancer, when you’re kind of, perhaps you’re juggling, you know, a couple clients at a
time, and you’re never really sure, when you’re going to be out of clients, or maybe part of your
marketing system is broken down, and you may be out of work. And, you know, the people who you
could potentially be working with are also getting pitched too, by people who have, you know, have the
same skills, skills as you and are willing to do it much faster for much less, and many times are
surprisingly really good. So, it can be, you know, it requires you to be more serious and to take your
business and your skills to the next level. But, not just you know, that I guess the skill that makes you,
you know, money, you know, your work, but also perhaps your networking skills, or your social skills, or
your ability to convey your message authentically online, so you’re so you’re a bit different. But yes,
yeah, I mean, for me, in my, in my experience, it’s made me a lot more serious than, you know, than I
ever thought. I think the idea of like, this laptop lifestyle is you’re on the beach, and, you know, in
Thailand, and you have your laptop there, and you work, you know, one or two hours a day. And in
reality, I’m sure that happens. But I don’t think I’ve worked, you know, harder than anything in my life
when it came to this kind of working online. You know, situation, and I love it. I absolutely love it. I think
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it’s even, it’s really, for me, kind of empowering that I can be so serious about something. I think
especially because I’m just a big goofball, like, act like a 15-year-old, like, yeah, like, down to my heart.
But yeah, I mean, it’s just the competition that’s out there. And, you know, people are so, you know,
they’re so intelligent nowadays, that, you know, in my line of work in the online marketing world, it’s like
people knowwhen they’re when they’re being marketed to. So, it’s a you need to kind of dive in and
learn from the experts even more on how to get really good.
Louise Wiles 24:34
Yeah. I think that’s a really good point for anyone listening who’s thinking of starting a business, you
know, in their life abroad in and one that perhaps is laptop driven or online driven, is, is that it’s not a
quick fix, and it’s not an easy way to make money. It does have to be taken really seriously as a
business after all. What are the stats around businesses failing, I think around 85% of new businesses
fail within the first two years or something, or it might be even the first year, I’m not sure, but, you know,
it is something that you have to take very seriously and develop a strategy around and really know what
you’re talking about. And it’s interesting also, I always think, you know, if you’re taking it seriously, then
you’re looking at ways to be ahead of the curve, aren’t you? And, and that’s where the time-consuming
nature comes from. because you need to know so much in order to be ahead. Or, you know, the cusp
of whatever change is happening, particularly online, I mean, everything is changing all of the time. And
it must be exhausting thing to keep up with it.
Francis Nayan 25:41
It can be it can be for sure, for sure. I mean, especially, you know, things like, you know, like Facebook
ads, compliance, or something that seems to change, like all the time. And, you know, the trending
things, you know, things just trend, and you just, it’s kind of sometimes it’s hard to predict, especially if
you have your mind, focus on other things. I think two years ago, the, in the strategy of having like, your
own online e commerce store was kind of new and relevant. And, I think nowadays everyone is a one
kind of coach or a consultant in their own way, in one way or the other. So, yeah, it can be a little
overwhelming. But you know, once you find that one thing you really enjoy doing then, it feels a bit
easier or at least the days go by a lot faster.
Louise Wiles 26:32
Yeah. So, it’s finding the one thing that you enjoy doing that you’re good at doing and links to
opportunities wherever you are. And I guess if it is online it can be International. So, are your clients
generally in Hungary, or are they all over the world?
Francis Nayan 26:47
Yeah, they’re actually all over the world. I don’t think I’ve ever had one client in Hungary, I think I might
have worked with one company from Slovakia, which is like a neighbour. But, mostly the US and out all
the way out east. So, I work with a lot of companies from Hong Kong, as well. Yeah, I think and
Australia, but yeah, mostly not in Hungary
Louise Wiles 27:12
Yeah. So that’s the that’s the fantastic opportunity. Clients can come from anywhere, if you’re working
an online business. Fantastic. So, I’m really interested, you take your business seriously, but you’re
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obviously living this life, because you want to enjoy where you are, and the International aspect of it.
So, you want to have some fun as well. So how do you set up your life to be productive? So, you’re
doing all you need to do work wise, but still have time to enjoy life? Because I can imagine this could,
your online life could take over couldn’t it? I guess you’re either working for clients, or you’re looking for
clients, or you’re doing both. And, as you were talking there, you know, you’re wanting to guard against
the times when you don’t have any clients and you have a lull in business, you kind of looking to get
that smooth, demand across time effect. So, you know, how, how do you balance it all?
Francis Nayan 28:13
Yeah, I mean, it, it really took me a while in the beginning to balance it all. I mean, you know, I was
thinking, I want to make all of this money, but then I also want to travel the world but then, you know,
making all this money may require me to spend a lot more time. I thought that was kind of like, that’s
how I defined success, used to. But, now it’s more like, I kind of made a decision, not too long ago,
really of, you know, how do I define success? And, you know, am I doing this for the income? Or am I
doing this for the lifestyle? You know, if I want to travel and go to these interesting locations and have a
good time, then I’m going to make that the goal, and I’m going to when I have the opportunity to do that,
then I will. But, you know, for me to do that, then I’m going to have to put the work in. So, I kind of had
to make a distinction about what I really wanted to do. And how would I get there. So, I mean, when I’m
not in these interesting locations then I am putting in the work, and I do wake up pretty early, at 5:30.
And I have all these habits to make sure that you know my mind is right, now my habits are in order.
And I’m creative, since I’ve a very creative job. And then, it’s making sure that when I have this time off,
and I can go to these interesting locations that I’m enjoying it, you know, and I have to make the hard
line of like, you know, if I’m travelling and this is the day that I’m not going to work, you know, maybe
this weekend or a few days then I am not going to open up my email, and I’m not going to open up
slack or try to look it. I know my business, Facebook or anything like that. And, to really be strict with
that, because you know, even if you look at it a little bit, it can be so easy to get sucked into it. But, you
know, it’s all about kind of making that hard line between, you know, when is work, and when is play,
and to really go hard when you’re in either one.
Louise Wiles 30:20
And I think that’s a really good message for so many people, not just people who are living the laptop,
lifestyle, mobile lifestyle, because so many people now are working from home, not going to the office,
so they don’t have that natural delineation of leaving again. And so gradually, you know, and I find this
with my business you know, gradually, the business creeps over into my life and life into the business
and particularly when I had kids home during lockdown, it all got very messy. And, it got messy for all of
us. Were the kids studying or were they having a break? And yeah, I was constantly gauging that. And
then thinking about myself and then not working when I wanted to be working and catching up in home
family time. And, it can deteriorate quite quickly if you don’t watch it, and don’t keep a track of it. So, I
really get your points. And I think that’s a really good message to people who are out there who are
thinking about doing this kind of thing, you know, really do get clear on when’s work time and when’s
not put time and have that clarity, and shut your computer, because otherwise, it will become very
blurred. And, I’m really interested in the 5:30 wake up. So, have you always been an early wake up
person? Or did you change that?
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Francis Nayan 31:44
I think I’ve always I’ve always been like a morning person. I think even when I was, you know, a young
guy, and I was like, you know, staying up late, I think I always even, you know, I would wake up at like
9am, which was still pretty early, and to my friends and I would be really happy to be awake and I’m
getting breakfast and all this stuff. I mean, it’s, for me, I used to think that like, if you woke up at five or
5:30, then you were like, you know, fast track to success. But, you know, I think that’s just for me. I
have a good friend of mine Kilian, who is, he’s a very good productivity coach, he told me that it doesn’t
really matter what time you wake up. It’s what you do after you wake up, that really sets your day.
Yeah. And I think I made that joke where I think, I was waking up at 5am. And then I found out he woke
up at 6am. And I made a joke of like, oh I think I have, you know, more discipline than you or
something, which is a total joke as he has like, way better discipline than me. And he was like, oh, it
makes no difference about what time you wake up. It’s what you do after you wake up that kind of
shows your productivity. So I mean, yeah, I love, I love waking up early, even on the weekends, I tend
to wake up at like 6am, on accident, or something total accident. But I think it’s a good habit to have,
Louise Wiles 33:06
Well I guess it’s a habit and you’ve got your body into that habit, as long as I’m just really interested
because I just read a book by Dr. Benjamin Hardy, he’s about, you know, it’s about personality and it’s
about, you know, working to develop your future self, which is related to your goals and so on. But one
of the things he’s really clear about, that he really believes in is that you need to have a very clear
morning routine. And he suggests that it’s an early on, he gets up at 5am, I think, and I just cannot bring
myself to do that. I’ve never been that kind of a morning person. But I totally agree that it’s having a
structure around what you do first that really counts and, and really getting that work done and banging
stuff out in those first few hours makes such a difference. To me, I’ve been trying to do, you know, be
very clear about what those first few hours are going to be about. And getting that done really sets up
your day for a different kind of a day, actually. And I think when you’re working from home, it’s very
easy, potentially to drift around for a few hours in the morning and think, well, I’ve got all day. But that
kind of set your mindset into that kind of like all day. And then it’s easy to get to the end of the day and
not have achieved what you wanted for that day. So, I think the structure for the first bits for the
morning for working from home is important. And yeah, he wants to investigate that point a bit. So, um,
I think we come to the end of our time together. I just wanted to finish with a couple of questions. The
first one being – mostly people listening are listening to a podcast that’s about thriving abroad. So, what
would be your number one tip for thriving abroad?
Francis Nayan 34:52
Mine would be to step out of your comfort zone, you know, whatever that may be. You know, perhaps
you’re know, you’re a little shy about meeting new people, I think even doing the smallest thing of like
making that Facebook post or something, I think, you know, that will help you thrive abroad or you
know, perhaps you’re extremely extroverted. And you know, you prefer to be around people, even go
the opposite way and actually reflect on your time being alone. And think about what it’s, you know,
what living abroad, or you know, being abroad is actually teaching you. And I think that will help you
thrive in a in different ways. So, I think really looking in yourself and stepping out of your comfort zone,
whatever that maybe is the probably my number one tip for thriving abroad.
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Louise Wiles 35:46
Yeah, thank you. I think that’s a really good, good tip. And, and I think it’s something that we probably
all know, we need to do and some days, you’re better at it than others. But just bearing in mind that
yeah, it is about stepping out and trying new things and different things. And, the more you do it, the
easier it becomes. So yeah, I totally agree with that. So, tell us a little bit about your business then. And
if people are interested to know more where they can find you.
Francis Nayan 36:14
Yeah, so as I mentioned before, I’m an email copywriter and strategist. So, I write promotions, and lead
the you know, full on email marketing strategy for typically coaches, consultants, mentors, and
sometimes e commerce businesses. And, it’s been been doing that for quite a while now, I’ve been
proud enough to, you know, proud to work with some amazing people. I’ve had my copy used by the
likes of Les Brown, and Kane Minkus a well known business growth coach, and yeah, many others. So,
I’ve been having a great time working with a lot of 6,7,8, figure ecommerce brands, and just getting my
hands into a bunch of things. But yeah, if you would like to learn more about me, then you can visit my
website at stories and copy com and join my email list. You know, that’s kind of my platform of how I
kind of connect with people. And I like to give out, you know, marketing advice, life advice, little insights
and kind of weird things that’s going on in my head. And yeah, I have an E book coming out called the
click rate code, where I’ll be sharing some tips and advice on how to make more money through email
Louise Wiles 37:33
what’s the e book called? Sorry, I didn’t catch that.
Yeah. The the click rate code,
Louise Wiles 37:39
the click rate code. Okay, great.
Francis Nayan 37:43
Yeah, yeah. anyone listening, just join my email list. And thank you so much, Louise for having me.
Louise Wiles 37:49
Yeah. Well, thank you very much for sharing your story and all your insights. Really enjoyed the
conversation today. Thank you, Francis. Bye bye for now.
Francis Nayan 37:57
Thank you. Bye bye.
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